- cross-posted to:
- usnews@beehaw.org
- cross-posted to:
- usnews@beehaw.org
The 30-year mortgage rate shot up the day after the Federal Reserve cut interest rates.
Hours after the Federal Reserve cut its benchmark interest rate on Wednesday by 25 basis points, mortgage rates ticked up 9 basis points.
…
The Fed announced Wednesday that it would trim its key policy rate by a quarter of a percentage point, bringing it to the range of 4% to 4.25%. Around the time of the announcement, Mortgage News Daily, a website that posts daily updates on rates, crashed - possibly the result of people flocking to the site to see how mortgage rates reacted. The company told MarketWatch it was looking into why the site was down that afternoon.
Mortgage News Daily later reported that the 30-year rate went up by 9 basis points (0.09%) to 6.22% on Wednesday. On Thursday, it reported that the 30-year rate had gone up by 15 more basis points, to 6.37%.
In contrast, a report by Freddie Mac measuring weekly averages for the 30-year rate found that mortgage rates fell to the lowest level in 12 months on Thursday. That’s because Freddie Mac’s report gathered information prior to and after the Fed’s decision was announced. The weekly report doesn’t survey lenders, but is based on actual mortgage applications to lenders across the country that are sent to Freddie Mac.
…
Mortgage rates aren’t tied to the Fed’s interest-rate moves. Instead, they typically fall in advance of a Fed rate cut, as MarketWatch has reported, because bond investors are trying to anticipate where the central bank will go. Mortgage rates are priced off the 10-year Treasury note BX:TMUBMUSD10Y by adding a spread.
Hence, the 10-year Treasury yield is a better gauge of how mortgage rates will move - and the 10-year yield was trending higher Thursday.
Mortgage rates have decoupled from the Fed’s benchmark / targets, basically, because fiscal policy and the overall economic outlook are so bad that traditional monetary policy is no longer effective.
This is generally what economists would call ‘a bad sign’.
Myself, I would go so far as ‘a very bad sign.’
My condolences to anyone who confused their local new/used home salesperson with a qualified economist, if they told you, and you believed, something like 'Fed rate cuts will lower mortgage rates!"
Cheaper borrowing for billionaires and corporations, and more expensive housing for everyone else. What a time to be alive
This also means that home prices, their actual prices, have to go down, if they actually want to sell.
But, the market could remain half frozen, as it roughly has been for a while.
I saw another report, I wouldn’t be able to post it as a news article because it isn’t a news article… basically, in the last month, something like 50% of houses that get pulled off market (delisted) are being pulled off by incredulous boomers who can’t believe that no one can afford to buy their house at the price that ‘they think its worth’.
So… yeah, basically, the Boomers get to enjoy a housing crash right as its time for them to retire and downsize, after spending the last ~20 years making it near impossible for anyone currently under 40 to be able to afford a home.
Great work, thanks everyone.
Wave bye bye to your ‘oh, we’ll leave you the house’ inheritance.
Yeah the uh… median new home buyer age is now like… 38.
It was 28, in the 1980s.
People who own a home will adjust the prices to try and sell them. Not willingly, and not quickly, but if they have to change they’ll take a hit. Who won’t sell are all the corporations that bought up everything when it was a hot market going up. They can afford to sit on an unoccupied house for a long time waiting to at least recapture the investment they made.
You have it backwards.
Private Equity Firms who basically bought houses to speculate with, planning on selling them to a family?
They already did a bunch of price cuts in the last quarter or two.
They arguably kicked this all off from ‘things don’t look so good’ to ‘oh fuck, blaring klaxons and red lights’.
Why?
Because they borrowed the money to buy the houses with, using access to credit sources ‘families’ don’t have.
They’re also a lot better at data analysis than ‘families’.
Basically, its the stock market ‘smart money vs dumb money’ dynamic.
They cut prices first because they know a small loss is better than a large loss.
‘Families’ tend to not understand that.
The other thing thats fun is … PE just converted a lot of those homes they would not be able to sell at the price they wanted… to rentals! For whole families!
Yay cashflow!
This (and other things) is actually already starting to slowly drive down rental rates for apartments and such in areas where they did that more heavily.
Uh but yeah, sorry, you got it backwards, PE firms have bigger pockets and can do math objectively better than most families: A slight ding to ROI is better than a massive one.
With families, its more of a personal existential crisis situation, with PE, its literally their dayjob.
Yeah, nobody in the ‘current quarter profits are all that matters’ world is gonna sit on a house for a decade in hopes of an eventual return, taking losses for that whole decade on those properties in the mean time.
No, the 10 year moved up, so billionaires wanting a ten year loan would have too pay more, just like everyone else.
The rate cut only affects the short term loans
Yeah, yeah, but this situation is more nuanced. For example credit card interest rates will lower.
You have to actually be brain damaged if you think credit card rates are going down.
Like, smashing your face into a wall repeatedly, brain damaged.
US consumer credit scores are tanking, default rates on auto loans are skyrocketing, we will probably see the same with houses this or next quarter, something like 5 million (former?) students just all became some kind of delinquent or massively overburdened by the resuming student loan payments…
…credit card rates are going to go up, with the possible exception of those who more or less are deca-millionaires in networth and also have ~800 or better scores.
Everyone else is in for a very rough time.
They will go down temporarily before they go back up. Some parts of the old system are too clunky to deal with this new reality we live in. Some people are making a fortune right now on that arbitrage.
Arbitrage? You mean like borrowing at one rate somewhere and pending it somewhere at a higher rate? Against credit cards? That sounds super dangerous
No trust me bro, what you wanna do is take out a credit card, max that shit out, cash advance, throw it all in robin hood, put it all on 24 hr term puts and calls.
There’s literally no way this goes tits up
Could I perhaps interest you in a protective helmet?
Don’t worry, I also offer in house financing if you can’t afford it all at once, just uh, don’t read any of the paper work, and sign here here here and here and I’ll need a copy of your social security card and drivers liscense.
LOL
Garys economics: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-k6czLUdJPI
Yep, broadly agree there.
There is a massive disconnect between finance and economics, and the people running things are very, very finance minded.
Ove-financialization, historically, is a very good indicator that a complex society is no longer able to generate enough real economic growth to keep up with expectations, and is in danger of a collapse…
… and that actually works, that relationship holds quite far back into human history, literally pre-capitalism, goes back hundreds, thousands of years.
Sadly, we do not appear to learn too much from our own history.
Thanks fuckfaces. As a veteran trying to keep my family in my home, this doesn’t help in the current economy.
(No, I didn’t ask for the fucking leopards)
Do you have an ARM? Or are you talking about dollar value, or?
Feels like a big “the economy is about to collapse” red flag.
Actually, long term rates being higher than short term rates is a healthy curve. An inverted curve is the leading recession indicator
Roughly copy pasting part of my reply to another version of this thread elsewhere:
You must have missed the last 2 or 3 years where the yield curve has been inverted, then univerted, then inverted again, and at least by the way I count it, inverted and univerted a 3rd time.
Recessions tend to happen rather rapidly when the yield curve uninverts.
Not usually during the inversion period.
Roughly, think of the curve inversion period being when a whole bunch of investments are being moved around in the background (uncertainty), and then roughly when the curve uninverts, well now the money has placed its bets on what is going to happen, which sectors will trend down and which will be safe havens (certainty).
So, we are now in the certainty phase, we will certainly have a broad recession (I’d argue it’ll be a 2nd Great Depression), following the longest period of yield curve nonsense in recorded history.
To summarize:
The yield curve inverting is your indicator that trouble is brewing.
The downturn happens as or right after the yield curve uninverts.
We are currently in the ‘yield curve has just uninverted’ timeframe, following the greatest yield curve inversion, in magnitude and duration, that has ever been seen in the US.
I would say ‘is currently collapsing’ indicator.
You know, along with the uh, ‘oops, we overcounted job gains in the last year by about a million, teehee’… thing.
Also a lot of these jobs aren’t what you’d previously think of, which contributed to the miscalculation in the first place. Previously, from my understanding, the BLS assumed a company would eventually hire X people, based on previous averages. However, a lot of new companies are just self-employed gig-economy workers who won’t hire.
Anyhow, I’m European, so my insight into that market is somewhat limited. But the signs are there: more consumers defaulting on debt, resulting in stuff like car repos… It’s no coincidence BNPL for small purchases is booming. And with it, so are defaults on them.
This is why I’m so surprised European leaders are so keen on keeping tariffs low, I expect US sales to plummet significantly, especially for goods from Europe as these are typically either essential anyways, or optional and even without tariffs expensive enough to not be purchased during recession. I mean yeah it’s not black and white but you get the point.
The US is in a position that can’t be fixed by monetary policy, lower rates and you create jobs (though in my opinion, most of that money vanishes into speculation nowadays), but then inflation goes up, which continues to be an issue; or do the opposite with opposite effects (jobs go down, inflation slows). I think the latter combined with social programs to soften the blow would be the way to go, but the US has voted for bootstraps instead of helping anyone but the richest.
I suspect this will be worse than 2008, again with a lot of sub prime debt that has been accrued and can no longer be repaid. Just this time, all the substance is gone.
Combine that with how its suddenly really popular to look up things like “help with paying mortgage” and the PE10 ratio being 40 for the 2nd time in the past 150 years (the only other time being in the leadup to the dotcom bubble pop)…
So… Is it time to buy gold again?
Gold has … fucking skyrocketed in the last 6 months.
I am not giving investment advice, but uh… yeah, it may still have a way higher to go as things keep getting worse.
It has topped the all-time high set in 1980, even adjusted for inflation. While it does seem high, when understand what is happening and what is likely to happen, it’s pretty clear that there is a lot more room to run.
The current bull market in gold has been largely driven by central bank purchases, not retail investors piling into ETFs. For the first time since 1996, central banks now own more gold than U.S. treasuries. Why? A variety of reasons, one of which is the fact that the U.S. is no longer seen as a reliable, stable force on the world stage, and the use of the dollar and the U.S. stranglehold on its SWIFT banking system gives the U.S. a tremendous amount of power to bring disfavored persons and nations to their knees financially. U.S. sanctions can essentially de-bank anyone by blackballing them from financial transactions, effectively causing their accumulated wealth to evaporate. That’s great if you want to bring pressure to bear on rogue states like Russia, but other nations are now waking up to see that like tariffs, this power can be abused on the whim of an unstable dictator, and accordingly we are watching the erosion of the dollar as the world’s reserve currency in real time.
In addition, the U.S. is no longer fiscally responsible in any way, shape or form. Apart from a brief period during the Clinton administration, the U.S. has run budget deficits my entire life. Many have said “Reagan proved that budget deficits don’t matter,” but that is not entirely true. What is true is that the U.S. can safely run a 2% budget deficit indefinitely, so long as its economy grows by 3% and the interest rate on the debt is manageable. The national debt grows, but the ability to service the debt grows more, and insolvency will never be a concern.
However, a “manageable” budget deficit is no longer the case. The “Big Beautiful Bill” puts the budget deficit in the 6% ballpark. Worse, tariffs are taxes that kill trade and shrink the economy. In addition, shrinking the population by deporting a significant portion of the work force also shrinks the economy, as the dollars those people once earned and spent will no longer contribute. In addition, both tariffs and deportations drive prices higher, as imported goods and labor become more expensive, causing inflation, and inflation causes lenders to demand higher interest rates to compensate for the additional risk.
So what we have now is an unsustainable budget deficit, a shrinking economy that reduces the ability to service the national debt, and the potential for rapidly rising interest rates that will make debt service much more costly, effectively teeing up what Ray Dalio calls a “Big Debt Crisis”. The 2008 financial crisis was a debt crisis, but it was on a much smaller scale than what is being set up now. A host of geopolitical forces and domestic forces coming to a head in a way that is causing great upheaval, and will get exponentially worse before things improve. The closest analog we have is the Great Depression and WWII, but I fear that this one will be even worse.
So what does this mean for gold? In 2017 I noted that gold had likely bottomed after the inflationary period following the 2008 financial crisis, and in 2019 I put a sizeable chunk of my net worth into a 2x leveraged gold ETF. In the June of 2024 I recognized that my worst concerns were likely to come true, and I added the rest of everything I had. I do not regret the move. I firmly believe that we are witnessing the end of the dollar as the world’s reserve currency, and indeed the end of the U.S. as the dominant power in the world. This will drive gold to astronomical levels. In early 2025, people were laughing at me for saying that gold will end 2025 over $4k, and now there are quite a few others that now see it. I believe that gold will likely peak somewhere in the ballpark of $10K per ounce, and perhaps higher. Moreover, it’s going to happen a lot more quickly than you might expect. Remember, Jerome Powell’s term as fed chair is up in 2026, and you can guarantee that Trump will put in a lackey. With a simping Congress and Supreme Court, Trump will puppet the fed into incredibly stupid maneuvers, destroying U.S. credibility and the dollar, causing great economic hardship. Gold is the go-to asset for such a situation.
Ok but stonks🚀🚀🚀 still go up, right?
They will for a while, but I believe that we’re headed towards a blow off top. It’s not going to happen this year, but maybe towards the end of 2026 or in 2027.
I would pin this comment if I could.
Excellent level of detail.
You’ve spelled out a whole lot of shit I’ve read / been aware of as well.
I too think the dollar is dying, rather rapidly right now… and uh yeah, its not exactly easy for the average person to try their own hand at FOREX or foreign stock / bond investments… and 99% of the crypto space is 100% fradulent bullshit and insider trading you don’t know about yet, and the other 1% is extraordinarily volatile.
To quote Hemingway from “The Sun Also Rises”:
“How did you go bankrupt?” Bill asked.
“Two ways,” Mike said. “Gradually and then suddenly.”
The dollar has been eroding for a while, and we’re rapidly approaching the slippery part of the slope.
Personally I’m rooting on the destruction of the evil empire
Generally I agree with the sentiment but the problem is that this is fucking horrfying if you happen to reside within the evil empire and you are not a deca-millionaire or richer.
Like, we’re looking at millions of likely deaths from homelessness and starvation in the next year.
No, the time was 6 months ago.
The second best time is now
Except that’s not true.
Only if the shit hits the fan. Otherwise you’re just buying at the top.
Exactly.
I did that. I’ve been on hold since.
Fed rate is only going down due to pressure from trump. Should be going upward following all the inflation caused by Trump’s tariffs.
Its ok, not like we need any other countries to buy our debt or anything.
Oh.
Right.
unemployment is another of their considerations.
This is generally what economists would call ‘a bad sign’.
Bad sign you say, time to cancel Jon Stewart!
Or just fire everyone at the BLS and make up all the numbers going forward.
Trump is also trying to make it some companies on the stock market move from monthly reporting requirements… to quarterly.
So… lol.
Depression when? FDR2 can’t come soon enough.
Depression is now, FDR2 is … probably not gonna happen.
We did not get Bernie in 2016, that would have been the last possible historical moment to stand a chance at avoiding the trajectory we have been on for the last decade, and now basically cannot escape from its inertia.
We are follwing the Nazi Germany political track from the 30s, not the US political track from the 30s.
We will probably be invading Canada and/or Mexico within 6 years, as an extension to that metaphor / framework.
People don’t seem to understand mortgage rates. Fixed rate mortgages are based on the bond market, variable rate mortgages are based on the banks overnight rates, which are based on the Fed rate.
Respectfully, I think your fear is overblown. The fed rate does impact the 10 year Treasury yield and mortgage rates. Basically investors were trying to get ahead of the rate cut and some were making investments accounting for a 50 basis point rate cut. Once the 25 basis point rate cut was confirmed, yields and mortgage rates rose accordingly since there wasn’t an immediate possibility of the larger cut.
Tbh, I believe the Fed has long had a bias in keeping inflation low at the expense of job growth. I would welcome larger rate cuts and hopefully larger employment growth… unfortunately fiscal policy can only do so much and Congress/President need to be doing more to drive job growth. They’re only interested in enriching their friends, so I won’t hold my breath.
In times of high inflation, you want to hold equities or other investments that will appreciate with inflation… stay away from bonds.
… Which of my fears are overblown?
Can you be more specific?
You seem to be coming at this from the angle of someone with enough money to attempt to actively manage a portfolio in a way that could possibly be some kind of useful.
I am coming at this from the perspective of the vast majority of Americans who do not.
I was responding to the idea that mortgage rates have decoupled from the Fed fund rate. The difference noted in the article is just noise… unfortunately so much reporting has a sprinkle of facts, but the goal isn’t to inform.
I mean, they moved contra to what you would normally expect.
If you’re saying that they moved up because the rate cut was expected to go down by more…
That’s still the reverse of what normally happens, and indicates that rates would need to fall a lot further for mortgage fianciers to have any faith in the price levels of the homes they are financing.
This shows that they don’t.
And my bet is that they will stay more decoupled as we go further into this increasingly financially chaotic period, no matter what the Fed does, because … the broad economy is so fucked that monetary policy alone cannot help the situation, and is in fact likely to cause even more chaos, as the economy continues to warp and crumble and snap in mostly unpredictable ways.
Such as, for example, … what will the effects of a broad devaluation of the dollar against other currencies be, on the housing market?
I can tell you it will be very complex, but I cannot say exactly how, and in which ways, to what magnitude, as fiscal policy is currently in the charge of unpredictable and fickle idiots with gigantic egoes and wafer thin skin.
The cut was expected, so it was already priced in.
The 10 year fell way before the announcement
It was 4.5% in June, 4.25% in July and beginning of September
It slid down to 4% a few weeks ago as analysts predicted a cut
Just reminded me of this copypasta:
Don’t even ask the question. The answer is yes, it’s priced in. Think Amazon will beat the next earnings? That’s already been priced in. You work at the drive thru for Mickey D’s and found out that the burgers are made of human meat? Priced in. You think insiders don’t already know that? The market is an all powerful, all encompassing being that knows the very inner workings of your subconscious before you were even born. Your very existence was priced in decades ago when the market was valuing Standard Oil’s expected future earnings based on population growth that would lead to your birth, what age you would get a car, how many times you would drive your car every week, how many times you take the bus/train, etc. Anything you can think of has already been priced in, even the things you aren’t thinking of. You have no original thoughts. Your consciousness is just an illusion, a product of the omniscent market. Free will is a myth. The market sees all, knows all and will be there from the beginning of time until the end of the universe (the market has already priced in the heat death of the universe). So please, before you make a post on wsb asking whether AAPL has priced in earpods 11 sales or whatever, know that it has already been priced in and don’t ask such a dumb fucking question again.
Ahaha!
The market is so rational that free will is impossible, actually, turns out we’re all Calvinists by way of day trading, ahahaha!