Is it real antisemitism or just not supporting Israel?
About when they start going on about “Zionists” Is where I draw the line and where it typically takes a turn.
As a Jewish person, I find it healthy to criticize the Israeli government. Most young Israelis do. Their government has been steamrolled by a wannabe dictator that is corrupt as hell and his team of racist, backwards conservative orthodox buddies.
They were just protesting in the streets weeks ago and now we’re expected to turn around and support the government? Nah. This doesn’t change anything.
I must admit, it’s quite refreshing to hear a critical take on the Israeli government from a Jewish person. I don’t know if it’s due to the news sources and forums I typically frequent (e.g. BBC, Guardian, etc), but I feel like it’s quite rare to hear an opinion from someone who actually lives there or who practices the religion.
It’s also quite reassuring (as a fairly ignorant outside observer who is only beginning to learn the tiniest bit about the complex and bloody history of this region) to hear that not every Jewish person or every Israeli likes the way that the state is developing.
Edit: I made some language changes because upon re-reading the parent comment I realised that the poster didn’t actually say whether they lived in Israel or not and I had made a faulty assumption.
The problem is a lot of people don’t differentiate between the israeli government and the israeli people as a whole - i’ve seen some straight up ‘they had it coming’ style bullshit that is verrry careful to place Good Jews and Bad Jews (the festival goers) to try and get a pass on antisemitsm and maaaan it is transparent as fuck.
But that’s how politics work nowadays. You need to assume that every group is homogenous and when someone from that group points out that it isn’t, you call them a hypocrite.
Literally kicked Bibi out, and he got back into power. It’s crazy.
Many of the Comments I had to read on Lemmy.ml were like „Israelian Civilians deserved that Terror attack“ so make of that what you like.
I’m one of the Israelis who frequently attended the anti-government protest.
I expect you not to support the Israeli government, but to support the Israeli people’s right to defend ourselves from terrorists.
Regardless of whether Israel has a right wing or left wing government, we will not allow thousands of us to be massacred.
We won’t stand by and twiddling our thumbs waiting for the next Hamas attack to kill more of us without responding with our full force.
None of this contradicts the fight to end the occupation. You can be anti-Hamas and anti-occupation at the same time.
Nuance is possible!
Then how about your government stop killing and abusing Palestinians. It’s almost as if decades of apartheid oppression, murder, and human rights abuses have consequences
They specifically stated that they where attending anti-governmsnt protests. 🙄
Sounds like you wish death for all Israeli civilians, which isn’t very cool of you.
Do you think Hamas would stop, if Israel stopped bombing them right now?
Do you think Hamas will stop if Israel keeps bombing them now?
Sounds like you’re a moron without reading comprehension ability and an agenda to push
I also disagree with many things the Israeli government does. But when people ignore the complete history of Israel and exclusively ventilate the pro-Palestinian propaganda, a red line is crossed for me.
The complete history of Israel forcing Palestinians into ghettos and systematically slaughtering them? The fact that they told civilians to flee to the south and then bombed the very area they claimed would be safe? The fact that they claim the right to self determination but refuse to allow the Palestinians the same right? The fact that netanyahu funded Hamas to destabilize the region so that he’d have pretense to carry out his war crimes?
I don’t condone the attacks by Hamas, but to pretend that Israel isn’t trying to carry out a genocide is crossing a red line for me.
This whole conflict has just always felt like a massive grey area as an outsider. Both sides have done horrible things over the years, with the retaliation often being even worse. Most governments (including mine) are actually supporting both sides, for example through humanitarian aid. That’s just kind of weird when you think about it, in a way they’re enabling both sides to keep going. And I just don’t know if there’s any way out of this besides one side completely destroying the other. Peace talks have been had so many times and it just doesn’t lead anywhere. It just feels inevitable.
There is no argument for “both sides bad” when one side is currently right now this instant blowing up hospitals, schools, and children. One side is objectively worse and it’s the side hiding behind the skirts of “antisemitism” as they carry out an Arabic genocide
I disagree.
Both sides are bad, no matter who is currently the aggressor.
Now because there is aggression, the aggressor has an obligation to stop it, and we have an obligation to force a stop in the conflict as well. But that doesn’t make the other party less Bad in this. Both sides killed a lot of innocent people, both have inhumane ulterior motives and both are supporting further escalation. But ofc if there’s only one party doing the fighting, then that’s the party that acutely needs to be stopped.
This distinction is very important to me, because you are not suddenly the good guy because you stopped killing civilians. You are just not actively doing war crimes which means we don’t have to intervene because of you anymore, which is at least one less reason. But you are not holy because “this year it was only 300 war crimes”.
So forcing an entire people’s into ghettos and taking their land, while putting them under blockade and only reluctantly letting I’m small amounts of aid and food, all while bombing them weekly is actually good, because sometimes they fight back, making them the aggressor?
“Both have inhuman ulterior motives”
Palestine wants to be free
Israel wants to genocide Palestine and live in their homes
Yes I can see how wanting liberty and self governance is exactly the same as wanting more land for your historically landless people regardless of how many natives you have to kill. Completely balanced
But ofc if there’s only one party doing the fighting, then that’s the party that acutely needs to be stopped.
Hamas never stopped fighting and they still have about 200 hostages. What makes you think that the IDF would stop fighting now?
What about the people ignoring complete history of the Palestinian people and blindly supporting Isreal?
What about people ignoring the possibility of a comet hitting the earth?
What about the second coming of Jesus?
The christian churches around the world would hate that. He’d hand their asses to them for being backwards bigots and overall betrayers of his message.
They’re also doing more harm than good. This is an immensley complicated situation that requires nuance.
Dare I say all this could have been avoided if they weren’t mistreated for nearly 70 years?
Israel is a state
Judaism is a religionIf one disagrees or opposes one, they don’t oppose the other. I know that Israel has managed to spin the narrative that Israel and Judaism are the same and everyone opposing the state is basically the same kind of hateful asshole Adolf was, but that’s just not true. We here in Germany have struggled a long time with that for obvious reasons. You couldn’t call out Israel for doing wrong shit without being called a Nazi. In that past that is. What you’ve seen isn’t “Antisemitism”. It’s opposition to some of the bullshit Israel is pulling that is the very same kind of bullshit Jews have been subjected to in the past. Or tell me: What’s the difference between a Ghetto in 1700s Germany and the Gaza Strip? Correct, the 1700s Ghetto had less travel restrictions.
There is a great push in Israel to be proud of the history of unjust oppression and prosecution Jews have suffered for centuries and how awful being a victim of that was. There is this sense that together, as a nation, they finally have the means to safeguard themselves against shit like that. Yet, that very same nation pulls a swift 180 when it comes to palestinians. Pushing them back into Ghettos, depriving them of any form of economical way out, depriving them of means to get their own electricity, their own water. Paying them pittances for their jobs, restricting travel for them whenever possible. Now, as soon as those people act hostile (go figure), the “state of the oppressed” Israel responds with the military. “A little bombardment will keep them in check, right? How dare they hate us?!”
If the message all the Shoa museums, all the graveyards for the people killed in atrocities was really understood, neither the “West Bank” nor the “Gaza Strip” could exist without Israelites acting up against them.
Rant over.
I agree with your conclusions but it’s an oversimplification to say
Israel is a state
Judaism is a religionThose things are very tied together, partially because no, Judaism is not just a religion. It’s a culture and ethnicity as well. And given the history of how/why Israel exists, it’s in the unique position of not just being any ole state.
So you say that you oppose Israel’s existence itself - the existence as a state, but do not hate Jews in particular, right?
Where did the poster say that?
We all know that I didn’t. But they need that for some sort of strawman argument, methinks.
Username checks out.
Where? Lemmy.ml usually cracks down on racists pretty hard report them when you see them
I stick to this instance, but I wouldn’t be surprised if this is another person calling anyone who doesn’t blindly support Israeli genocide efforts antisemitic.
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Its antisemitic to equate all Jews with Israel so…
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That is indeed really specific, thank you.
So you would support a two state solution based on the 1947/48 suggested borders?
Unfortunately, this does not seem to be the case, as the comments of lemmy.ml users here show.
Not my experience. If you’re talking about Israel a lot of people are getting really fast really mad. If you try to talk rational about other states people stay mostly calm. I would call this behaviour a double-standard because of antisemitism. There’s no rational reason why people focus so much about this little state.
Sorry I’m having a moment. In your experience Lemmy.ml does not crack down on racists in a hard manner? Because a lot of the anger towards Israel comes from an antisemitic place since other states don’t get criticized so harshly?
It sounds believable since it would be pretty hard to differentiate why exactly someone is reacting in a harsh manner and ban them accordingly. Just my brain is refusing to parse words atm
Hahahaha. Lol.
They’re rabidly pro Palestine/Hamas over there.
Alright, but antisemitic?
They call it anti-zonist.
Mostly, they just downplay every horrible thing Hamas does, and make a huge deal out of every bad thing Israel does.
Yeah, it was just a little genocide guys, what’s the big deal
It’s actually pretty huge deal all thing considered.
It is, but then Hamas actually launched an operation whose entire goal was to slaughter civilians. Kinda hard to feel any sympathy for them after that.
What do you think the bombing campaign has been? Only 10x more effective.
Dumb takes from a .ml account, what a surprise.
That’s the face I also make when seeing an idiot redditor who’s just found Lemmy calling any criticism of a genocide " antisemitic" because in the redditor’s mind, genociding brown people doesn’t count.
genociding brown people doesn’t count.
If they live here in the US, then chances are they really do believe this, at least by action if not word. We’re still withholding land from the tribes that is properly theirs (even by our colonialist treaties’ standards), and just look what we’re doing at the southern border.
National and racial chauvinism is a vestige of the misanthropic customs characteristic of the period of cannibalism. Anti-semitism, as an extreme form of racial chauvinism, is the most dangerous vestige of cannibalism.
Anti-semitism is of advantage to the exploiters as a lightning conductor that deflects the blows aimed by the working people at capitalism. Anti-semitism is dangerous for the working people as being a false path that leads them off the right road and lands them in the jungle. Hence Communists, as consistent internationalists, cannot but be irreconcilable, sworn enemies of anti-semitism.
In the U.S.S.R. anti-semitism is punishable with the utmost severity of the law as a phenomenon deeply hostile to the Soviet system. Under U.S.S.R. law active anti-semites are liable to the death penalty.
J. Stalin
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20 years later and the Doctors Plot happens😳
Israelis and people of Jewish faith are fine and nice people. Netanyahu’s government is a monster with genocidal ideas. Some people go along with these terrible ideas.
Palestinians and people of Muslim faith are fine and nice people. Hamas leadership are monsters with genocidal ideas. Some people go along with these terrible ideas.
Criticizing. Israel. Is. Not. Anti-semitism.
Is criticizing Saudi Arabia “Islamophobia”?
Nah you’re just mad because you’re losing the information war.
People started finding out what’s happening in Gaza, and that’s not good news for you.
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Lol
