Americans tend to assume that any instance of a white person painting their face black is horrendous because their only cultural anchor for it is their horrendously racist minstrel shows and then get confused when people in other countries don’t follow suit.
Okay, but if Zwarte Piet is just supposed to be covered in coal then why did they also give him giant red lips?
It’s a little bit disingenuous to imply that Americans doing blackface is racist, but European blackface is innocent and traditional. It’s not like the Dutch had never seen a black person when Zwarte Piet was created…
As far as I understand, Zwarte Piet started out as a depiction of a black person. But it wasn’t used, like minstrel shows were, to push hateful and limiting stereotypes of black people.
I don’t think every American doing blackface must have been racist, but I think that given the cultural context in America, doing so will justifiably cause such massive offence that it can’t really be defended.
yeah this still just sounds like “it’s only racist when americans do it,” because yeesh, that explanation of where it came from isn’t helping your case.
Uh, are they literally depicting a minstrel-show black man kidnapping a white woman?
Euro racism denial is like those confederate losers who say it’s “just about heritage.” Or WWII collectors who seem to ONLY gravitate toward third reich shit. It’s such a naked “well, technically…”
Where’s the hate/limitation I spoke of? Or I’m not sure what you’re trying to say.
I also specifically didn’t say that the reaction makes something racist; rather I said it can make it indefensible. I feel like we’re not communicating well here.
Americans tend to assume that any instance of a white person painting their face black is horrendous
That implies that the instance we’re talking about, in this case Zwarte Piet, is not horrendous. See above image. The caricature shown is often present in historical American minstrel shows, yes, but its separation from the minstrel show does not place it in a vacuum that makes it not racist. It’s still a dehumanizing caricature of a black person, and goes far past the realm of Lawrence Olivier in Othello. I believe that is about as clear of an explanation of this scenario that I can give from my perspective.
Black people look like people, not drow elves with giant red lips. It’s a racial caricature. I’ve stated and restated that. It was not created in a vacuum, it was created as a caricature of black people. In the same vein of caricature as minstrel shows. Dutch Christmas celebrators themselves recognize that, and have since modified Zwarte Piet to actually look like someone covered in soot.
Old Zwarte Piet Costume:
New Sooty Pete Costume:
I’ve explained as best I can. This feels like willful ignorance. It’s up to you now to read what we’ve said and figure out why we’ve said it. Trust me, if you reread this thread you’ll figure it out.
Hey guys, the continent with several countries that plundered Africa for hundreds of years and invented the trans Atlantic slave trade has never had a problem with racism.
Always? I mean, there are a lot of different applications, maybe some of them are more innocent and we just don’t know enough about them. I always recoil when I see something like that too, being quick to judge rarely works out in my favor.
Yeah we did. The helper of Santa claus called schmutzli (wich translates roughly to dirty) goes around town to beat up children. But that was back in the day.
Doesn’t Switzerland have a blackface festival, or is that Sweden?
Americans tend to assume that any instance of a white person painting their face black is horrendous because their only cultural anchor for it is their horrendously racist minstrel shows and then get confused when people in other countries don’t follow suit.
Okay, but if Zwarte Piet is just supposed to be covered in coal then why did they also give him giant red lips?
It’s a little bit disingenuous to imply that Americans doing blackface is racist, but European blackface is innocent and traditional. It’s not like the Dutch had never seen a black person when Zwarte Piet was created…
As far as I understand, Zwarte Piet started out as a depiction of a black person. But it wasn’t used, like minstrel shows were, to push hateful and limiting stereotypes of black people.
I don’t think every American doing blackface must have been racist, but I think that given the cultural context in America, doing so will justifiably cause such massive offence that it can’t really be defended.
yeah this still just sounds like “it’s only racist when americans do it,” because yeesh, that explanation of where it came from isn’t helping your case.
I didn’t give an explanation so I don’t really understand
Idk about that one, chief.
Also, the reaction to something isn’t what makes it racist. It’s the content.
Uh, are they literally depicting a minstrel-show black man kidnapping a white woman?
Euro racism denial is like those confederate losers who say it’s “just about heritage.” Or WWII collectors who seem to ONLY gravitate toward third reich shit. It’s such a naked “well, technically…”
Where’s the hate/limitation I spoke of? Or I’m not sure what you’re trying to say.
I also specifically didn’t say that the reaction makes something racist; rather I said it can make it indefensible. I feel like we’re not communicating well here.
That implies that the instance we’re talking about, in this case Zwarte Piet, is not horrendous. See above image. The caricature shown is often present in historical American minstrel shows, yes, but its separation from the minstrel show does not place it in a vacuum that makes it not racist. It’s still a dehumanizing caricature of a black person, and goes far past the realm of Lawrence Olivier in Othello. I believe that is about as clear of an explanation of this scenario that I can give from my perspective.
What exactly is it that you find horrendous? Pretend I’m a very sheltered teenager.
Black people look like people, not drow elves with giant red lips. It’s a racial caricature. I’ve stated and restated that. It was not created in a vacuum, it was created as a caricature of black people. In the same vein of caricature as minstrel shows. Dutch Christmas celebrators themselves recognize that, and have since modified Zwarte Piet to actually look like someone covered in soot.
Old Zwarte Piet Costume:
New Sooty Pete Costume:
I’ve explained as best I can. This feels like willful ignorance. It’s up to you now to read what we’ve said and figure out why we’ve said it. Trust me, if you reread this thread you’ll figure it out.
I love when you guys try to hide your bigotry behind “culture”.
Hey guys, the continent with several countries that plundered Africa for hundreds of years and invented the trans Atlantic slave trade has never had a problem with racism.
I mean, the UK had televised blackface into the 70s, so that’s not entirely accurate.
I don’t mean to say that all other blackface is innocent, that being a perfect counterexample.
It’s always done to mock and dehumanize which is the first stage of all persecution.
Always? I mean, there are a lot of different applications, maybe some of them are more innocent and we just don’t know enough about them. I always recoil when I see something like that too, being quick to judge rarely works out in my favor.
Yeah we did. The helper of Santa claus called schmutzli (wich translates roughly to dirty) goes around town to beat up children. But that was back in the day.
David Sedaris has an interesting monologue about this.
It’s called 6 to 8 black men. Definitely worth a listen. That one is about the Dutch.
Black Pete better known as Zwarte Piet is Dutch in origin
But it did become a culture war issue in Germany, right?
must be a culture war issue in
SwitzerlandSwedenNetherlandsGermany
I was wrong, it was Netherlands. https://www.nationalgeographic.com/history/article/black-pete-christmas-zwarte-piet-dutch