In practice all the people from socialist states who I met in person and asked about it, did not feel represented at all, on the contrary, they hated socialism, primarily for the very low quality of life and instead they hyped american capitalism because of the abundance of consumer products it generates
Who were these people? Did they grow up and work during the socialist period in the country/countries in question? Were their parents workers or capitalists? It’s easy to find someone from any socialist or previously socialist country who will denounce its government, either for legitimate reasons, out of ignorance, or for personal gain. We have people on this instance who live/lived in a socialist country, with a very different perspective
If that statement is based on the assumption that there are still classes in socialist states too, I fully agree with it.
When contemporary Marxists use the term “socialism”, we’re not referring to communism, which is classless and therefore stateless by definition. Communism has never been implemented, and cannot be implemented as long as imperialism remains a threat. Classes remain in every socialist country (Cuba, China, the DPRK, Vietnam, and Laos), and they will exist for the foreseeable future. The fundamental difference between a socialist state and a capitalist state is which class they represent
However a lot of Cubans also decide to leave Cuba because of the living conditions socialism created
Socialism in Cuba did not worsen living conditions by any metric. The reason for harsh living conditions during the special period was the dissolution of its biggest trading partner (the USSR) and the disgusting blockade enforced by the US, which continues to this day. Socialism is the reason why Cubans has far better access to education, healthcare, housing, etc. compared to people in most capitalist countries; imperialism is the reason why Cuba has been unable to thrive, and the fact that it’s survived and is doing relatively well despite the ongoing genocide is a testament to the superiority of socialism
As long as classes exist, a state will exist, and that state will naturally have a monopoly on what is (legally) allowed to be published
If that statement is based on the assumption that there are still classes in socialist states too, I fully agree with it.
It’s actually based on the opposite. Marx discussed this in depth and Lenin clarified and expanded on it in State and Revolution, which is honestly a must read and is really quite brief and a lot of fun to read.
The state arises from class antagonisms. The state is a means with which one class oppresses the others. The withering away of the state can only be achieved by reducing and ultimately eliminating classes and thus the class antagonisms which gave rise to the state in the first place.
What a nascent socialist state must do therefore, is establish the working class as the dominant class, and work to eliminate class antagonisms through, among other things, the elimination of private property and the class it creates. Preventing reactionaries from having a platform is one of the tools a state can and must use to help achieve this goal, just as the violent silencing of the working class in capitalist regimes is a tool used to maintain the hegemony of the capitalist class.
I talked to a native Chinese woman who said that China is not a communist country.
… while her family worked for a state owned corporation, retired at 55, has amazing medical insurance, and is receiving a pension three times their salary.
She also claimed that there’s a lot of competition for jobs in state owned companies because they pay a lot more, have more stable employment, and better benefits than privately owned companies.
… while saying that China is successful because they transitioned to a free market economy with minimal gov intervention.
Like… yes, it’s important to get others opinions. But… also understand that the people you ask… may not have the full picture.
Most people who actually lived in Eastern Europe during the socialist years still say life was better back then, even considering the capitalist road “market reforms” of the 80s.
Current socialist nations show overwhelming popular support for the way their countries are run, even as per polls by western institutions.
I have also heard about the horrors of socialism from plenty of eastern Europeans. Most weren’t born until the nineties, the decade of capitalist looting of their countries after the socialist states were illegally overthrown. Others were just children when the wall fell.
Of course some hype US capitalism, the US has spent and continues to spend unbelievable sums propagandizing people on the idea that consumerist capitalism is the holy grail. Unlimited quantities of consumer goods was for example the only thing US vassal West Germany could show to the revolutionary East and say “hey look life is better here,” so that’s what they did. Then the west annexed the east and the easterners found out pretty quick it was all just lies.
I don’t know if you’re aware, but there are plenty of people living in capitalist countries who hate their jobs. And what’s more, there are plenty of people who can’t even get any jobs and are forced to live in horrific conditions.
I mean there is a selection bias at play here. People who left Vietnam to US were the ones who were already biased against communism to start with. You’d have to go and talk to people who actually live and work in Vietnam today to get an idea of what a typical person in Vietnam thinks. If you look at the happiness index report for 2023, Vietnam has climbed 12 places, so clearly life satisfaction continues to improve for majority of the people.
Like I said, you’ll find people who are unhappy in every society. We don’t have utopias in the real world. I think the focus needs to be on whether a society is working for majority of people, and whether the progress appears to be moving in a positive direction. That’s really the best we can hope for.
In practice, when they transition to a capitalist system, their conditions ended up being worse off, and wanted to transition back.
They wanted the security provided by communism and the luxuries from capitalism. But they soon found out that the ability to make a living is much more important than purchasing luxury goods
As Parenti said, capitalism achieved in 5 years what communism couldn’t achieve in 50; make communism look good.
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Who were these people? Did they grow up and work during the socialist period in the country/countries in question? Were their parents workers or capitalists? It’s easy to find someone from any socialist or previously socialist country who will denounce its government, either for legitimate reasons, out of ignorance, or for personal gain. We have people on this instance who live/lived in a socialist country, with a very different perspective
When contemporary Marxists use the term “socialism”, we’re not referring to communism, which is classless and therefore stateless by definition. Communism has never been implemented, and cannot be implemented as long as imperialism remains a threat. Classes remain in every socialist country (Cuba, China, the DPRK, Vietnam, and Laos), and they will exist for the foreseeable future. The fundamental difference between a socialist state and a capitalist state is which class they represent
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Socialism in Cuba did not worsen living conditions by any metric. The reason for harsh living conditions during the special period was the dissolution of its biggest trading partner (the USSR) and the disgusting blockade enforced by the US, which continues to this day. Socialism is the reason why Cubans has far better access to education, healthcare, housing, etc. compared to people in most capitalist countries; imperialism is the reason why Cuba has been unable to thrive, and the fact that it’s survived and is doing relatively well despite the ongoing genocide is a testament to the superiority of socialism
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It’s actually based on the opposite. Marx discussed this in depth and Lenin clarified and expanded on it in State and Revolution, which is honestly a must read and is really quite brief and a lot of fun to read.
The state arises from class antagonisms. The state is a means with which one class oppresses the others. The withering away of the state can only be achieved by reducing and ultimately eliminating classes and thus the class antagonisms which gave rise to the state in the first place.
What a nascent socialist state must do therefore, is establish the working class as the dominant class, and work to eliminate class antagonisms through, among other things, the elimination of private property and the class it creates. Preventing reactionaries from having a platform is one of the tools a state can and must use to help achieve this goal, just as the violent silencing of the working class in capitalist regimes is a tool used to maintain the hegemony of the capitalist class.
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I talked to a native Chinese woman who said that China is not a communist country.
… while her family worked for a state owned corporation, retired at 55, has amazing medical insurance, and is receiving a pension three times their salary.
She also claimed that there’s a lot of competition for jobs in state owned companies because they pay a lot more, have more stable employment, and better benefits than privately owned companies.
… while saying that China is successful because they transitioned to a free market economy with minimal gov intervention.
Like… yes, it’s important to get others opinions. But… also understand that the people you ask… may not have the full picture.
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Most people who actually lived in Eastern Europe during the socialist years still say life was better back then, even considering the capitalist road “market reforms” of the 80s.
Current socialist nations show overwhelming popular support for the way their countries are run, even as per polls by western institutions.
I have also heard about the horrors of socialism from plenty of eastern Europeans. Most weren’t born until the nineties, the decade of capitalist looting of their countries after the socialist states were illegally overthrown. Others were just children when the wall fell.
Of course some hype US capitalism, the US has spent and continues to spend unbelievable sums propagandizing people on the idea that consumerist capitalism is the holy grail. Unlimited quantities of consumer goods was for example the only thing US vassal West Germany could show to the revolutionary East and say “hey look life is better here,” so that’s what they did. Then the west annexed the east and the easterners found out pretty quick it was all just lies.
I don’t know if you’re aware, but there are plenty of people living in capitalist countries who hate their jobs. And what’s more, there are plenty of people who can’t even get any jobs and are forced to live in horrific conditions.
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I mean there is a selection bias at play here. People who left Vietnam to US were the ones who were already biased against communism to start with. You’d have to go and talk to people who actually live and work in Vietnam today to get an idea of what a typical person in Vietnam thinks. If you look at the happiness index report for 2023, Vietnam has climbed 12 places, so clearly life satisfaction continues to improve for majority of the people.
Meanwhile, the situation in US is the diametric opposite https://www.bamboohr.com/resources/guides/employee-happiness-h1-2023
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Like I said, you’ll find people who are unhappy in every society. We don’t have utopias in the real world. I think the focus needs to be on whether a society is working for majority of people, and whether the progress appears to be moving in a positive direction. That’s really the best we can hope for.
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In practice, when they transition to a capitalist system, their conditions ended up being worse off, and wanted to transition back.
They wanted the security provided by communism and the luxuries from capitalism. But they soon found out that the ability to make a living is much more important than purchasing luxury goods
As Parenti said, capitalism achieved in 5 years what communism couldn’t achieve in 50; make communism look good.
deleted by creator